She has a point, usually he does sneak into Fogwells over taking the front door. There's no point in him turning the lights on, either. He's careful when he comes here to train, though, it's not the only reason he comes here. He doesn't want the place to rot away, he cleans up in here on occasion so his visiting wouldn't be that odd to any prying eyes. The fact he has company might be more interesting than the fact he'd bothered to turn the lights on.
"If anyone comes down to ask, we can tell them you're teaching me how to ballroom dance." Matt at least has the grace to be a little bit abashed about how easily the lie comes to him, scratching a spot behind his ear and adopting a similar policy of not facing Karen directly to say it. He's not lying to Karen anymore, or at least, that's the idea. It doesn't mean he's not lying to pretty much every stranger he meets, though, and he knows it isn't a comfortable reminder.
Both are good ideas. He thinks teaching her some sweeps and throws might also be helpful, give her an opening to run while her attacker recovers. They might need more practice, though, so starting simple might be best. "I can do that," he agrees, heading away from the ring and towards some mats left folded in a corner. "Help me with this, will you?"
It’s not that lying itself bothers Karen. There’s a place for certain kinds of lying in the world. It’s more Matt’s relationship with lying that bothers her. It’s almost like a crutch, like it’s easier for him to disappear into those mistruths than anything else. He’s a good guy. She wants him to want better for himself. So when he suggests they use ball room dancing as a cover, her mouth hitches into a half smile and she shakes her head. She doesn’t expect him to let on to strangers what he can do – the necessary kind of lying. But the immediacy of the excuse is a reminder of the uglier parts of their friendship.
“Yeah, on it,” she agrees as she follows him over to the side of the room. The mats are a little unwieldy, and she sneezes into her elbow when they stir up some dust dragging them across the floor. Once they’re unfolded, she stands on one edge of the mat and stretches. “So, where are we going to start?”
Even Matt would admit that's an ugly tendency. He's been living so many lies for so many years they're almost as easy as breathing. Every relationship he's ever had has always been edged with a certain amount of dishonesty and while he doesn't enjoy it, he rarely does much to change it. Foggy found out on accident, after finding him nearly beat to death. Karen is the first person he's told with intent. He doesn't want to lie to her anymore — but she is a rare exception that isn't likely to break any time soon.
It is a bit difficult to wrestle the mats to the floor, but it'll be softer if they need a place to land. "Sorry," he mutters with a hint of a laugh at her kitten-like sneeze. Note to self, dust the mats, too. He doesn't have to suggest she stretch, and he carefully takes off his sunglasses and leaves them on the safety of the edge of the ring before he joins her.
"Disarming is good to know, but I'll have to get something for us to practice with." Disarming was different depending on the weapon, and just holding onto something wouldn't be the same. Matt is too thorough for that. "Let's start with escapes. That should give you more options than a knee, though I have to say that one works pretty well if you can land it." He is not here to tell her she shouldn't go for the family jewels if it'll get her out of trouble, but he will offer some alternatives.
Karen waves away his apology for the dust. It doesn’t matter. It’s an old building. She’d be more surprised if there was no dust. She pauses for just a moment mid-stretch when he talks his way through a plan for their training session. “I do have my gun with me,” she answers after a beat. It’s in her bag, off to the side with her coat. “We can unload it if you want to practice with that.” After all, someone’s more likely to point a gun at her than a broom handle.
She can’t help but laugh a little when he talks about using the knee. “Yeah, it has a pretty good success rate when you’re facing the person,” she answers, amused. The problem is getting grabbed from behind. The other problem is that she has acres of hair. She’s trying to be better about putting it up when she goes out to investigate a lead. With that in mind, she straightens up, pulling the elastic from her wrist as she loops her hair back into a bun.
“How do you want to start?” She’s never done any sort of training like this. Zumba was about as close as she ever got.
It's a good suggestion, though, "It'd be easier to start with a rubberized one. The metal will hurt to practice on." The fact she's brought up the gun does feel like he can finally comment on it, however — he's smelled the hint of gunpowder and heard the weight of it in her bag, though he's never had an opening to ask about it. "How long have you had a gun?" It's his first question, and least invasive one. He wonders how much experience she has and if she's trained to use it, though that's absolutely not something he can help her with. Even if his senses could permit him to fire one accurately, Matt has never tried and doesn't want to.
Hair was difficult, he'd give her that. He could give her ideas on how to release a hand from her hair, though there was no way to make it painless. Hair up or hair down, it was easy to grab a handful of it and it wasn't easy to pry fingers out on your own. Matt made a point of covering his, even when he had far less to grab ahold of.
"Choke holds is a good place," Matt decides, though he does seem faintly uncertain. Not that Karen can't learn, but because he's never touched her like that and doesn't exactly want to. It's for a good cause, but still. "This is going to be uncomfortable, for both of us. If you need me to stop, then just tell me." As good as Matt is at sensing alarm and panic, he doesn't want to sense it too late.
“Are assailants going to switch their weapons out for something that hurts less?” Karen asks, her voice full of dry amusement. She’s not particularly afraid of pain, it’s just that she doesn’t seek it out the way he does. But she’s not going to shy away from leaning into it if it serves a purpose, and this will. His question takes her by surprise a little, and she looks at him thoughtfully for a moment. She’s shocked enough people with the fact that she carries that she knows what he’s really asking. “I bought this one after everything with Union Allied. I did a lot of target shooting growing up.” Rural living. There’s not much else to do when you’re young and angry and restless.
The indecision in his voice surprises her for a second time, and she watches him curiously. She doesn’t need enhanced senses to be able to tell the gears are turning in his brain. When he elaborates, her mouth curves in a smile. “I’m not expecting it to be comfortable,” she answers honestly. She’s expecting it to be hard, because there’s no way for her to learn otherwise. Despite all the scars and lies between them, well. “I trust you, Matt,” she informs him. “I’ll tap you on the arm or shoulder somewhere if I need you to stop.”
"No, but starting on an actual handgun will tear up your hands before you get a chance to actually master the technique. Start approximate and work your way up." Matt is trying not to train the way Stick had trained him, and that meant taking it a lot slower. While you could learn how to swim by being thrown in the deep end, you were just as likely to drown. Matt wants to teach rather than test how well Karen could roll with the punches.
That doesn't mean it'll be easy, though. It wouldn't help her any to gloss over the dangers and teach with kid gloves on. She doesn't have to worry about him not taking this seriously. He just isn't going to intentionally hurt her to teach her, whether he learned that way or not.
"If you can't manage a tap, then just say my name." Be it in a shout or a gasp or a whisper, he'll certainly hear it and he'll even more certainly stop. He doesn't intend to throw things at her that she's not expecting, not yet. Even so, it's still a good rule to have. He gets to his face, rolling out his shoulders and arms before bouncing once or twice on his toes, before nodding. "Whenever you are ready."
She does appreciate that he wants to do this right. Not that she thought he’d be trying to cut corners. It’s more...well, her total lack of experience contrasted against his years of training. Meeting in the middle is going to be a unique challenge. And she can tell that he’s taking his safety measures seriously. She can’t help but smile a little when he reinforces the alternative to a tap out. “I promise I’ll stop if I need to,” she reassures him.
There’s a moment’s indecision when he indicates they’ll begin when she’s ready. For a second, Karen thinks he means that she should...rush him or something, which truly doesn’t make sense. It’s just his posture as he finishes his own stretching, and she can’t help but laugh a little. It’s a quick loosening of nerves.
“I’m ready.” As she’ll ever be. Even when she doesn’t know what to expect, she’s always willing to try.
No, he's not going to jump her out of the blue. She can at least rest assured on that. The more comfortable she gets the more intense they'll be able to get, though day one is a little soon for that. It's a gradual process, it'll take more than a single night of practice for her to master the skills he wants to teach her. That said, every time they work at it hopefully she'll grow in confidence and have more tools at her disposal to pull from if worst comes to worst.
Matt tilts his head like a confused puppy at the laugh — he cant place what inspired it. Maybe he doesn't need to know. "Start by grabbing me." After all his concerns about her tapping out if she needs to, she might be surprised that she's the one doing the choking — though, not for long. Once he explains the technique they'll switch.
"Just placing your hands on my neck is fine." Before Karen genuinely tries to choke him out, it's probably good to mention that.
Anything she's learned previously has been much less formal. Or well - maybe formal isn't the right word, because there's certainly some safety considerations when you're handling firearms. But anything else has just been quick and spur of the moment, albeit similarly rooted in necessity. If she were the type to believe in karma, she'd wonder what it was she'd done in a past life.
The instruction to grab him leaves a lot of room for interpretation, and she's taking a moment to decide what that means when he clarifies. Like, maybe she'll grab an arm and a shoulder? But no. The neck makes more sense.
She can't help but smile at the way he elaborates. "Did you think I was really going to try to choke you?" she asks, amused. Crossing the mat, she stands facing him and lets her hands rest carefully on his neck on either side.
There’s plenty to learn in the moment, though it’s a dangerous place to start. Matt remembers how Stick trained him, how every mistake was punished severely until he learned not to make them. Did it have the desired result? Certainly. Morally Matt does try to aim for treating people better than his mentor does, so he’ll do this the more measured way until he gets a better sense of what he’s doing, too.
He’s never tried to teach before, this is new for both of them — just in different ways.
“It has to be a tempting offer, I thought it’d be better to clarify.” Being friends with Matt Murdock does occasionally leave you wanting to strangle him; apparently even Matt himself knows that.
He uses his own hands to tighten her grip, just a little. Not enough to really obstruct his breathing, but enough to force some strain into her hands. “Were most sensitive between our finger bones,” he explains, running his fingers along the lines in her hand because without the ability to be a visual learner, he’s become quite kinetic. It’ll help her find those pressure points if she has a point of reference on herself. “It’ll be easier to escape if you start with a distraction, but you already know how to do that. When they’re distracted, push your thumb in that spot I showed you, grab a finger and—“ he curls all his fingers around one of her pointer fingers and twists and pulls downward to extend her arm out and pull her off balance, all in one motion.
It’s sudden and probably a little uncomfortable. That said, Matt figures good for her to get a hint of the sensation she’s trying to replicate. He lets go and offers, “I can show you a little slower.”
Karen can’t help but laugh a little when he calls it a tempting offer. He’s not wrong. And in fairness, it’s been a while since the thought has crossed her mind. “Well, lucky for you I’m not the strangling type,” she answers with a smile. Door slamming and volubly speaking her mind are certainly on the table, however.
She’s a little wary and tense as he adjusts her grip, but she’s raptly paying attention as he runs his fingers over her hand and explains what he’s doing. Even though she’s pretty sure she knows what’s coming, it still takes her by surprise, and she lets out a startled sound as he pulls her arm to the side and she has to side step to keep her balance.
“Well, I can see how that would come in handy,” she admits, and he can probably hear the smile in her voice. “Yeah, show me one more time.” She pays attention to the positioning of his hand and the way her arm turns when he moves it off, and then gives her head a nod. There’s nothing to do but try. Her mouth curls in amused little half smile. “I guess it’s your turn to choke me?”
In her defense, he is very good at what he does. There's a reason he's survived Daredeviling for so long, when the odds of one man against all the monsters in Hell's Kitchen does seem like a losing battle. As she learns, she'll have to take it slow, and he knows that. Still, how can you strive toward a goal you don't understand?
"That's the idea." To give her things that will help her, that will be useful in multiple situations. Like a toolbox that she can pull from if the situation warrants it. As much as he hopes it won't, practically he knows her and her work well enough that he can guess that it will. He can't protect her if he's not with her (she doesn't want him to protect her, period, but he will if he can), so she needs to be able to protect herself.
He can sense the hint of her smile in her voice, and shakes his head with a half laugh. "I guess so." Turns out, Matt is one for chokeholds, though he's absolutely never wanted to have Karen in one. It's for a good cause, and his grip is hardly threatening. "Start slow," he directs gently.
“Yep,” Karen agrees when he instructs her to start slow. There’s a look of serious concentration on her face as she adjusts her stance. She won’t have time to center her balance in a real serious situation, but at least she can take it steady, one step at a time while they practice. “You know I don’t usually get choked from the front,” she informs him, a half-hearted attempt at levity. Her mouth quirks in a half smile as she looks up at him.
Her hands trace up over his forearms, keeping one hand there as she maneuvers the other to take his fingers the way he demonstrated. It’s a near enough thing as she goes to pull them off, but not – quite there. She stops halfway through, shaking her head as she releases his hand. “No, not quite. Put your hand back.”
When he complies, she moves her hand back into place to try the move again, gripping carefully as she pulls his arm down and away. Her face lights up with a grin. “There we go!”
"We can try from behind next," Matt muses mildly, amused despite himself because there's honestly no way to phrase that without it sounding a little dirty. He means it though, he'll teach her a few different grabs just in case any future assailants try to mix it up. The best preparation he can give her is to give her is to give her techniques that were as varied as possible. The pressure points were consistent, the techniques followed similar rules. Once she had all the pieces she could put them together any way she wanted.
Matt hasn't had a whole lot of students in self defense, so he has no idea how common it is to correct your instructor when you felt you didn't do it quite right. Still, it seems very Karen to not be satisfied and want to go back and try again before she's even finished her first attempt. He obliges, because he figures it's more important for her to find the technique than earn a hard learned lesson that she might not always get the grip she wants on an attacker.
The second time she finds the purchase she wants, and he can't quite help but let go; that's the whole point, and he's about as pleased by her success as she is. "Good," Matt tells her, and he means it. It might be slow, but they can work on that. Understanding the technique is more important, now. "We'll work on faster. If they have you with both hands, you can do it two handed, though getting rid of one might leave them in enough pain that they'll let go with the other."
If she pulled down hard and fast enough, she'd be dislocating some fingers, which really tended to distract a person.
Karen huffs out a breath that’s almost a laugh at the way he phrases that, rolling her eyes fondly. There’s really no better way to say it. And she appreciates that there’s a bit of joking going on while they practice. She’s pretty sure that her nerves would through the roof otherwise. It’s a very low stress situation – she trusts Matt – but it’s the implication of why she’s learning it.
There’s no missing the swell of triumphant pride when she successfully dislodges his grasp. She lets go of his hand so that he can reposition himself where he wants to go for whatever comes next. She’s listening attentively as he talks, nodding along. It’s obvious how it could be useful to yank both hands off at once. But it’s just as obvious that it might not always be necessary. You get one hand off, you’ve already opened up your airway.
“You could teach a class.” She’s only half joking. “Daredevil Defense Demonstrations.” He’d never have time for it with everything else he has going on, but it’s half joke and half compliment. He’s off to a good start with his patient, slow paced instruction.
It does do a lot to lighten the air, to be able to make jokes. It's a little uncomfortable to think about why exactly Karen needs to know these sort of releases and just about as uncomfortable to think about how Matt knows how to perform them in the first place. A few jokes here and there to ease the ache does a world of good.
He doesn't grab her again right away, shaking off the ache in his hand. It's a good sort of ache, one that tells him Karen is learning and could probably do worse to someone that deserves it. And truth be told, Matt has the oddest relationship with pain. Sometimes he finds it almost satisfying.
"Something to keep in mind if the whole law career thing doesn't work out." If he wasn't so secretive about what he could do, Matt would likely even enjoy teaching people to protect themselves. It was a way to help people help themselves, and for all his flaws Matt does want to protect people. "Let's try it a couple more times with one hand and move to two."
While they can't work endlessly, getting a good understanding of a couple releases would be a good start for a night.
Karen watches as Matt shakes off his hand. He doesn't seem to be in the kind of pain where he needs to stop. Which is fortunate, because she would have felt like an ass if she managed to hurt him. The danger of practicing with amateurs. "I don't think you're in much danger of that," she points out with a half smile. The bigger danger would be in falling down the Daredevil rabbit hole and losing track of the rest of his life.
She nods her head at his suggest. "I'm ready." It's still a little slow going, but her movements grow more confident as she dislodges his hand. When he puts both hands on her neck, however, she's a little flummoxed by the mechanics of it. And a little amused. "It's like you went for my shoulders to start dancing and missed," she mutters with a quick laugh.
This is Matt we are talking about, Karen. Suffice to say he's always been talented at working through the pain. He'd rather feel the ache, know that she's got the technique, than have her risk not having it right if she ever did have to use it. It's certainly not bad enough that he thinks they need to stop, but then again, that's a pretty low bar...
He laughs, a little breathless, at her joke. She's right, having a sense of humor about it does make it less awkward. "I promise you I'm a better dancer than this." He doesn't dance often, granted, though when he does, he's never choked a woman on accident. "Think of it one hand at a time. And it's easier if you surprise your attacker before you try to grab them, otherwise it's a battle of strength."
“I’m not sure I believe you on that one,” Karen answers, though it’s clear by her tone that she’s just teasing him. She can absolutely see how he’d hold his own on the dance floor – good balance, quick reflexes. There are worse places to start.
Her hands rest on his forearms, and there’s a notable pause as she digests his advice. There’s a lot of different ways you could surprise someone. Especially when they’re in your face and trying to choke you. “Well the first thing that comes to mind is a head butt and obviously I don’t want to do that to you, so.” Lifting her leg, she places her heel on top of his foot – she has no intention of stepping on his foot either. As she’s moving her foot back, she slides her hands up so she can yank herself free again, one hand at a time.
He appreciates her reciting her thoughts and ideas, it gives him a chance to respond to them. Help her have an idea of which might be better in a life-or-death situation. "A headbutt is like to daze you as much as it dazes them. Keep that for a last ditch effort." That said, Matt has totally done it in a pinch... maybe he should teach her a bit about meditation and centering her breath. It might help if she's going to pull a move like that, but it's more fiddly than simple hand to hand.
"Good. Go for the middle of the foot, just in case they've got something steel toed." He approves of her logic, though it's not surprising to Matt that Karen is clever and thoughtful. He knew that about her almost as soon as he met her. She manages the removal, slower than onehanded, but that's to be expected. He nods his approval, and instead of just grabbing her again, he instructs, "Hold still."
He ducks a little to press two fingers behind her knee. "You can put your heel here," he explains, pushing slightly to make her knee bend. "And use that to sweep them. It might wind you a little to land on top of them, but it'll wind them worse." He pulls back, and his eyebrow tucks just a little. "I'd show you, but I think it'd be easier just to try it."
Karen’s nothing if not determined. It’s an important skill for her to have, and she appreciates him taking the time to teach her. She nods and changes where her heel is on his foot, adjusting to his advice as he gives it. She doesn’t particularly enjoy being caught by surprise. The next time she finds herself in a tight corner, she’s not going to stay in it.
One of her brows quirks when he pushes on the back of her knee, her leg bending, though she manages to catch her footing. It’s a move she’s seen before, but not one she ever would have thought to try on her own. “Define easier,” she remarks, a hint of wry amusement in her voice. She’s not entirely convinced that they’re going to go down easy, but she trusts him to navigate the fall so neither of them end up with broken bones.
“Okay. Let’s give this a shot. You ready?” She waits for him to get into position, and braces her hands on his shoulders, since she’s not entirely sure how this is going to go. She shifts her weight, bringing her foot around to nudge his knee out from behind. Perhaps predictably – they go down like a tower of cards and she lands on top of him with a gasp. It’s quickly followed by a laugh. “Are you okay?”
Well, since she asked... "It's something you have to find for yourself, in my experience. I already know where it is, there's only so much preforming it on you could teach you." He thinks she'd be better served working through it. It might take a little bit of fiddling, but the more she tries it the easier it'll go.
It does not at all dawn on him that is not remotely what she means. As far as falling down goes, Karen has no need to worry. Matt is already great at that!
"I'm ready," he agrees, rather wryly amused that she asked in the first place. It's thoughtful, though the fact he asked her to sweep him should be pretty good indication that he's prepared for it. There are some drops and rolls that are easy to brace for, reduce the impact. There's not a ton that he can do on this one, though, expecting it does mean he can control his breathing and the reaction to the impact.
"Yes," Matt mumbles with a laugh, breathless from the landing though more or less unharmed. "If you ever do this out in the field, I hope you won't have the gut instinct of worrying about your attacker." He's half teasing her, and half reminding her that she doesn't have to worry about apologizing for doing what they're here to do.
As far as Karen is concerned, there’s ready and there’s ready. It could also just be that she’s new to this whole self defense training thing. It’s a little different when you practice with a gun. Point, shoot, shatter target, retreat. Cans and plates and paper don’t tend to complain too much. It’s another thing entirely when it’s a person, but she’s never hesitated to pull the trigger when she has to. She’ll learn the same on the mats, eventually.
“Typically the people attacking me aren’t my friends,” she points out, not bothering to hide her amusement at his admonishment. Typically. There’s been a time or...three...that she’s agreed to let Frank pretend to take her hostage. Which is different. That’s all for show. No actual harm is coming her way in that situation.
Propping herself up on one arm, she makes a face that she knows she can’t see, all wrinkled nose mirth. “Do I just hope once we’re down here that the attacker is polite enough to lay there and make jokes?” she asks. It’s good natured but pointed.
"Haven't pushed Foggy far enough, I take it." He's teasing, the worst Foggy could attack someone with is an extremely provoking guilt trip. He would Not be impressed by Karen playing hostage for Frank Castle, though even Matt has to more or less admit that he doesn't think Karen is in any danger around him. Begrudgingly admitting that is never going to be the same as approving, though.
She's got a point, too. Matt sits up, ruffling his hair that has gotten a little damp from sweat and it just leaves it looking kind of ridiculous. "If it's Foggy attacking you, sure. The rest, maybe not. Day one is a little soon to be trying to fight against you, but we'll get there."
All the tips in isolation wouldn't be quite as helpful as putting them into action, as true to life as they can accomplish. She is right that he could fight her more. Matt has sparred and then some with Elektra, he's more than capable of it... though he doesn't have any interest in pushing as hard with Karen.
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Date: 2019-08-17 04:25 am (UTC)"If anyone comes down to ask, we can tell them you're teaching me how to ballroom dance." Matt at least has the grace to be a little bit abashed about how easily the lie comes to him, scratching a spot behind his ear and adopting a similar policy of not facing Karen directly to say it. He's not lying to Karen anymore, or at least, that's the idea. It doesn't mean he's not lying to pretty much every stranger he meets, though, and he knows it isn't a comfortable reminder.
Both are good ideas. He thinks teaching her some sweeps and throws might also be helpful, give her an opening to run while her attacker recovers. They might need more practice, though, so starting simple might be best. "I can do that," he agrees, heading away from the ring and towards some mats left folded in a corner. "Help me with this, will you?"
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Date: 2019-08-17 04:47 pm (UTC)“Yeah, on it,” she agrees as she follows him over to the side of the room. The mats are a little unwieldy, and she sneezes into her elbow when they stir up some dust dragging them across the floor. Once they’re unfolded, she stands on one edge of the mat and stretches. “So, where are we going to start?”
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Date: 2019-08-19 03:15 am (UTC)It is a bit difficult to wrestle the mats to the floor, but it'll be softer if they need a place to land. "Sorry," he mutters with a hint of a laugh at her kitten-like sneeze. Note to self, dust the mats, too. He doesn't have to suggest she stretch, and he carefully takes off his sunglasses and leaves them on the safety of the edge of the ring before he joins her.
"Disarming is good to know, but I'll have to get something for us to practice with." Disarming was different depending on the weapon, and just holding onto something wouldn't be the same. Matt is too thorough for that. "Let's start with escapes. That should give you more options than a knee, though I have to say that one works pretty well if you can land it." He is not here to tell her she shouldn't go for the family jewels if it'll get her out of trouble, but he will offer some alternatives.
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Date: 2019-08-20 01:46 am (UTC)She can’t help but laugh a little when he talks about using the knee. “Yeah, it has a pretty good success rate when you’re facing the person,” she answers, amused. The problem is getting grabbed from behind. The other problem is that she has acres of hair. She’s trying to be better about putting it up when she goes out to investigate a lead. With that in mind, she straightens up, pulling the elastic from her wrist as she loops her hair back into a bun.
“How do you want to start?” She’s never done any sort of training like this. Zumba was about as close as she ever got.
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Date: 2019-08-25 04:29 am (UTC)Hair was difficult, he'd give her that. He could give her ideas on how to release a hand from her hair, though there was no way to make it painless. Hair up or hair down, it was easy to grab a handful of it and it wasn't easy to pry fingers out on your own. Matt made a point of covering his, even when he had far less to grab ahold of.
"Choke holds is a good place," Matt decides, though he does seem faintly uncertain. Not that Karen can't learn, but because he's never touched her like that and doesn't exactly want to. It's for a good cause, but still. "This is going to be uncomfortable, for both of us. If you need me to stop, then just tell me." As good as Matt is at sensing alarm and panic, he doesn't want to sense it too late.
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Date: 2019-08-25 09:29 am (UTC)The indecision in his voice surprises her for a second time, and she watches him curiously. She doesn’t need enhanced senses to be able to tell the gears are turning in his brain. When he elaborates, her mouth curves in a smile. “I’m not expecting it to be comfortable,” she answers honestly. She’s expecting it to be hard, because there’s no way for her to learn otherwise. Despite all the scars and lies between them, well. “I trust you, Matt,” she informs him. “I’ll tap you on the arm or shoulder somewhere if I need you to stop.”
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Date: 2019-08-29 01:40 am (UTC)That doesn't mean it'll be easy, though. It wouldn't help her any to gloss over the dangers and teach with kid gloves on. She doesn't have to worry about him not taking this seriously. He just isn't going to intentionally hurt her to teach her, whether he learned that way or not.
"If you can't manage a tap, then just say my name." Be it in a shout or a gasp or a whisper, he'll certainly hear it and he'll even more certainly stop. He doesn't intend to throw things at her that she's not expecting, not yet. Even so, it's still a good rule to have. He gets to his face, rolling out his shoulders and arms before bouncing once or twice on his toes, before nodding. "Whenever you are ready."
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Date: 2019-08-31 02:52 am (UTC)There’s a moment’s indecision when he indicates they’ll begin when she’s ready. For a second, Karen thinks he means that she should...rush him or something, which truly doesn’t make sense. It’s just his posture as he finishes his own stretching, and she can’t help but laugh a little. It’s a quick loosening of nerves.
“I’m ready.” As she’ll ever be. Even when she doesn’t know what to expect, she’s always willing to try.
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Date: 2019-09-03 01:26 am (UTC)Matt tilts his head like a confused puppy at the laugh — he cant place what inspired it. Maybe he doesn't need to know. "Start by grabbing me." After all his concerns about her tapping out if she needs to, she might be surprised that she's the one doing the choking — though, not for long. Once he explains the technique they'll switch.
"Just placing your hands on my neck is fine." Before Karen genuinely tries to choke him out, it's probably good to mention that.
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Date: 2019-09-05 01:27 am (UTC)The instruction to grab him leaves a lot of room for interpretation, and she's taking a moment to decide what that means when he clarifies. Like, maybe she'll grab an arm and a shoulder? But no. The neck makes more sense.
She can't help but smile at the way he elaborates. "Did you think I was really going to try to choke you?" she asks, amused. Crossing the mat, she stands facing him and lets her hands rest carefully on his neck on either side.
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Date: 2019-09-06 04:06 am (UTC)There’s plenty to learn in the moment, though it’s a dangerous place to start. Matt remembers how Stick trained him, how every mistake was punished severely until he learned not to make them. Did it have the desired result? Certainly. Morally Matt does try to aim for treating people better than his mentor does, so he’ll do this the more measured way until he gets a better sense of what he’s doing, too.
He’s never tried to teach before, this is new for both of them — just in different ways.
“It has to be a tempting offer, I thought it’d be better to clarify.” Being friends with Matt Murdock does occasionally leave you wanting to strangle him; apparently even Matt himself knows that.
He uses his own hands to tighten her grip, just a little. Not enough to really obstruct his breathing, but enough to force some strain into her hands. “Were most sensitive between our finger bones,” he explains, running his fingers along the lines in her hand because without the ability to be a visual learner, he’s become quite kinetic. It’ll help her find those pressure points if she has a point of reference on herself. “It’ll be easier to escape if you start with a distraction, but you already know how to do that. When they’re distracted, push your thumb in that spot I showed you, grab a finger and—“ he curls all his fingers around one of her pointer fingers and twists and pulls downward to extend her arm out and pull her off balance, all in one motion.
It’s sudden and probably a little uncomfortable. That said, Matt figures good for her to get a hint of the sensation she’s trying to replicate. He lets go and offers, “I can show you a little slower.”
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Date: 2019-09-08 01:34 pm (UTC)She’s a little wary and tense as he adjusts her grip, but she’s raptly paying attention as he runs his fingers over her hand and explains what he’s doing. Even though she’s pretty sure she knows what’s coming, it still takes her by surprise, and she lets out a startled sound as he pulls her arm to the side and she has to side step to keep her balance.
“Well, I can see how that would come in handy,” she admits, and he can probably hear the smile in her voice. “Yeah, show me one more time.” She pays attention to the positioning of his hand and the way her arm turns when he moves it off, and then gives her head a nod. There’s nothing to do but try. Her mouth curls in amused little half smile. “I guess it’s your turn to choke me?”
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Date: 2019-09-11 11:49 pm (UTC)"That's the idea." To give her things that will help her, that will be useful in multiple situations. Like a toolbox that she can pull from if the situation warrants it. As much as he hopes it won't, practically he knows her and her work well enough that he can guess that it will. He can't protect her if he's not with her (she doesn't want him to protect her, period, but he will if he can), so she needs to be able to protect herself.
He can sense the hint of her smile in her voice, and shakes his head with a half laugh. "I guess so." Turns out, Matt is one for chokeholds, though he's absolutely never wanted to have Karen in one. It's for a good cause, and his grip is hardly threatening. "Start slow," he directs gently.
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Date: 2019-09-16 01:40 am (UTC)Her hands trace up over his forearms, keeping one hand there as she maneuvers the other to take his fingers the way he demonstrated. It’s a near enough thing as she goes to pull them off, but not – quite there. She stops halfway through, shaking her head as she releases his hand. “No, not quite. Put your hand back.”
When he complies, she moves her hand back into place to try the move again, gripping carefully as she pulls his arm down and away. Her face lights up with a grin. “There we go!”
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Date: 2019-09-16 03:51 am (UTC)Matt hasn't had a whole lot of students in self defense, so he has no idea how common it is to correct your instructor when you felt you didn't do it quite right. Still, it seems very Karen to not be satisfied and want to go back and try again before she's even finished her first attempt. He obliges, because he figures it's more important for her to find the technique than earn a hard learned lesson that she might not always get the grip she wants on an attacker.
The second time she finds the purchase she wants, and he can't quite help but let go; that's the whole point, and he's about as pleased by her success as she is. "Good," Matt tells her, and he means it. It might be slow, but they can work on that. Understanding the technique is more important, now. "We'll work on faster. If they have you with both hands, you can do it two handed, though getting rid of one might leave them in enough pain that they'll let go with the other."
If she pulled down hard and fast enough, she'd be dislocating some fingers, which really tended to distract a person.
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Date: 2019-09-18 03:11 am (UTC)There’s no missing the swell of triumphant pride when she successfully dislodges his grasp. She lets go of his hand so that he can reposition himself where he wants to go for whatever comes next. She’s listening attentively as he talks, nodding along. It’s obvious how it could be useful to yank both hands off at once. But it’s just as obvious that it might not always be necessary. You get one hand off, you’ve already opened up your airway.
“You could teach a class.” She’s only half joking. “Daredevil Defense Demonstrations.” He’d never have time for it with everything else he has going on, but it’s half joke and half compliment. He’s off to a good start with his patient, slow paced instruction.
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Date: 2019-09-22 05:31 pm (UTC)He doesn't grab her again right away, shaking off the ache in his hand. It's a good sort of ache, one that tells him Karen is learning and could probably do worse to someone that deserves it. And truth be told, Matt has the oddest relationship with pain. Sometimes he finds it almost satisfying.
"Something to keep in mind if the whole law career thing doesn't work out." If he wasn't so secretive about what he could do, Matt would likely even enjoy teaching people to protect themselves. It was a way to help people help themselves, and for all his flaws Matt does want to protect people. "Let's try it a couple more times with one hand and move to two."
While they can't work endlessly, getting a good understanding of a couple releases would be a good start for a night.
my life has been stupid busy lately, i'm so sorry for the long pause!
Date: 2019-10-08 11:58 pm (UTC)She nods her head at his suggest. "I'm ready." It's still a little slow going, but her movements grow more confident as she dislodges his hand. When he puts both hands on her neck, however, she's a little flummoxed by the mechanics of it. And a little amused. "It's like you went for my shoulders to start dancing and missed," she mutters with a quick laugh.
that's ok! i understand!
Date: 2019-10-13 09:00 pm (UTC)He laughs, a little breathless, at her joke. She's right, having a sense of humor about it does make it less awkward. "I promise you I'm a better dancer than this." He doesn't dance often, granted, though when he does, he's never choked a woman on accident. "Think of it one hand at a time. And it's easier if you surprise your attacker before you try to grab them, otherwise it's a battle of strength."
<3
Date: 2019-10-17 03:17 am (UTC)Her hands rest on his forearms, and there’s a notable pause as she digests his advice. There’s a lot of different ways you could surprise someone. Especially when they’re in your face and trying to choke you. “Well the first thing that comes to mind is a head butt and obviously I don’t want to do that to you, so.” Lifting her leg, she places her heel on top of his foot – she has no intention of stepping on his foot either. As she’s moving her foot back, she slides her hands up so she can yank herself free again, one hand at a time.
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Date: 2019-10-20 11:34 pm (UTC)"Good. Go for the middle of the foot, just in case they've got something steel toed." He approves of her logic, though it's not surprising to Matt that Karen is clever and thoughtful. He knew that about her almost as soon as he met her. She manages the removal, slower than onehanded, but that's to be expected. He nods his approval, and instead of just grabbing her again, he instructs, "Hold still."
He ducks a little to press two fingers behind her knee. "You can put your heel here," he explains, pushing slightly to make her knee bend. "And use that to sweep them. It might wind you a little to land on top of them, but it'll wind them worse." He pulls back, and his eyebrow tucks just a little. "I'd show you, but I think it'd be easier just to try it."
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Date: 2019-10-26 11:17 pm (UTC)One of her brows quirks when he pushes on the back of her knee, her leg bending, though she manages to catch her footing. It’s a move she’s seen before, but not one she ever would have thought to try on her own. “Define easier,” she remarks, a hint of wry amusement in her voice. She’s not entirely convinced that they’re going to go down easy, but she trusts him to navigate the fall so neither of them end up with broken bones.
“Okay. Let’s give this a shot. You ready?” She waits for him to get into position, and braces her hands on his shoulders, since she’s not entirely sure how this is going to go. She shifts her weight, bringing her foot around to nudge his knee out from behind. Perhaps predictably – they go down like a tower of cards and she lands on top of him with a gasp. It’s quickly followed by a laugh. “Are you okay?”
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Date: 2019-11-01 03:09 am (UTC)It does not at all dawn on him that is not remotely what she means. As far as falling down goes, Karen has no need to worry. Matt is already great at that!
"I'm ready," he agrees, rather wryly amused that she asked in the first place. It's thoughtful, though the fact he asked her to sweep him should be pretty good indication that he's prepared for it. There are some drops and rolls that are easy to brace for, reduce the impact. There's not a ton that he can do on this one, though, expecting it does mean he can control his breathing and the reaction to the impact.
"Yes," Matt mumbles with a laugh, breathless from the landing though more or less unharmed. "If you ever do this out in the field, I hope you won't have the gut instinct of worrying about your attacker." He's half teasing her, and half reminding her that she doesn't have to worry about apologizing for doing what they're here to do.
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Date: 2019-11-02 02:19 am (UTC)“Typically the people attacking me aren’t my friends,” she points out, not bothering to hide her amusement at his admonishment. Typically. There’s been a time or...three...that she’s agreed to let Frank pretend to take her hostage. Which is different. That’s all for show. No actual harm is coming her way in that situation.
Propping herself up on one arm, she makes a face that she knows she can’t see, all wrinkled nose mirth. “Do I just hope once we’re down here that the attacker is polite enough to lay there and make jokes?” she asks. It’s good natured but pointed.
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Date: 2019-11-06 02:43 am (UTC)She's got a point, too. Matt sits up, ruffling his hair that has gotten a little damp from sweat and it just leaves it looking kind of ridiculous. "If it's Foggy attacking you, sure. The rest, maybe not. Day one is a little soon to be trying to fight against you, but we'll get there."
All the tips in isolation wouldn't be quite as helpful as putting them into action, as true to life as they can accomplish. She is right that he could fight her more. Matt has sparred and then some with Elektra, he's more than capable of it... though he doesn't have any interest in pushing as hard with Karen.
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From:wrap here possibly? ?
From:perfect! /scene
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